00:00:00.240 slightly behind the behind the schedule,
00:00:02.240 but hey, for the minor amount of viewers
00:00:04.960 that are there, wait, we're
00:00:08.200 live. All
00:00:10.120 right, we got a couple of couple of
00:00:12.639 little bits and pieces and tweaks. I'm a
00:00:15.679 fly by the seat of my pants kind of guy
00:00:17.440 sometimes, especially on all this stuff.
00:00:19.400 Although lately it's gotten
00:00:24.519 smoother.
00:00:27.160 And let's see what we got.
00:00:31.760 that up. Uh oh. Did I lose you?
00:00:35.200 Oh yeah. No, no, no. I' I've lost your
00:00:37.520 image in my my thing here. It's lost
00:00:40.559 your image for some
00:00:44.760 reason. Where did the image
00:00:51.239 go? That's not good.
00:00:57.920 That's not good at
00:01:00.359 all. I had your video image playing. Now
00:01:03.520 it's
00:01:04.360 gone. That annoys
00:01:09.720 me. Let's come back. If I do that, it
00:01:13.119 does. Okay. So that's a whole
00:01:17.320 another whole another thing
00:01:24.119 here. Let's try that and try
00:01:28.119 that as we try to work out the bugs
00:01:30.640 here. Folks, welcome to Nope. It's still
00:01:33.360 going to
00:01:35.000 vanish. Still going to vanish. And
00:01:38.400 actually
00:01:45.040 Let's try that. No. And one more
00:01:51.479 thing. Okay. All right. Well, we're
00:01:54.640 going to have to run with it with the
00:01:56.159 bug in the system. So, sorry for this.
00:01:58.960 Maybe we'll be able to tweak it here and
00:02:01.360 there as we go along through
00:02:03.880 it. With all of
00:02:06.520 that, let's get this show rolling.
00:02:10.399 All
00:02:11.640 right, get it out of the
00:02:14.520 way. All right, it is time, ladies and
00:02:18.400 gentlemen. It is time for WordPress
00:02:20.360 plugins A to Zed, not Z H. Welcome to WP
00:02:27.840 Plugins A to Zed, episode 67, exploring
00:02:31.440 the WordPress galaxy with Jonathan
00:02:34.720 Denwood of WP Tonic. Coming up next on
00:02:38.800 WordPress plugins from A to
00:02:44.840 Zed, WordPress, the king of content
00:02:48.160 management systems, powering the web
00:02:50.319 with over 80,000 plugins to choose from.
00:02:53.280 How do you sort the junk from the gems?
00:02:56.400 Welcome to WP Plugins A to Zed, where
00:02:59.040 we've been keeping the pulse of
00:03:00.480 WordPress alive for over 16 incredible
00:03:03.360 years. Join us every week for an
00:03:05.840 unrehearsed real talk breakdowns of the
00:03:08.480 latest and greatest plugins, developer,
00:03:10.720 and community member interviews. Some
00:03:13.120 weeks, Amber and I team up to dig in.
00:03:15.280 Others, I'm flying solo, unpacking
00:03:17.840 WordPress news, demoing a standout
00:03:20.480 plugin, or sharing tips to power up your
00:03:23.120 site. No scripts, no fluff, just the
00:03:26.319 good stuff from A to Z. So, plug in and
00:03:29.440 let's get rolling.
00:03:46.080 the vast uh oh I had my mic you nope I
00:03:49.440 some of that got to get cut off anyway
00:03:51.360 we're heading off into the vast universe
00:03:52.799 of the WordPress with a true thought
00:03:54.959 leader who's been navigating its stars
00:03:56.720 for over a decade Jonathan Jonathan
00:03:59.920 Denwood the founder of WP P. Tonic, who
00:04:02.640 joins us to share his insights on
00:04:04.239 running Boutique Hosting Company in
00:04:06.360 2025, the future of WordPress amidst the
00:04:09.040 rise of AI, and the impact of Matt
00:04:11.360 Mullenwag on the community. Plus, we'll
00:04:13.519 dive into the good, the bad, and the
00:04:15.200 ugly of running a long-term WordPress
00:04:17.358 podcast. Whether you're a plug-in
00:04:19.120 enthusiast or WordPress professional,
00:04:21.680 this episode is packed with cosmic
00:04:23.520 wisdom for you won't want to
00:04:25.800 miss. I probably should have practiced
00:04:28.120 that. Welcome to the show, Jonathan. I
00:04:30.720 greatly appreciate you here. Oh,
00:04:33.040 fantastic, John. Um, the big daddy. It's
00:04:36.240 great to be on your show and to have a
00:04:38.960 chat with you, the big daddy of
00:04:40.880 WordPress.
00:04:43.199 Well, you know, we've got all kinds of
00:04:45.120 wonderful things here. I thought we'd
00:04:47.040 start with uh one, of course, you're
00:04:50.320 running u WP Tonic, which is a boutique
00:04:54.000 hosting, which is pretty much what mine
00:04:55.919 is at WP Pro A to Zed. And uh you know
00:05:00.960 let's talk a little bit about the
00:05:03.759 challenges of boutique u I am just
00:05:06.720 stumbling all over the words uh boutique
00:05:09.120 hosting if maybe if I slow down that's
00:05:11.840 what I should do slow down. No you never
00:05:13.919 you never slow down John I also struggle
00:05:16.400 with my words as well. So um well you
00:05:20.560 know um we are B2 coasting provider like
00:05:23.919 you said we specialize in membership
00:05:27.440 learning management systems and
00:05:29.759 community focused websites.
00:05:32.960 We just try and make it easier
00:05:36.440 because we provide not only really great
00:05:40.000 hosting, but we go
00:05:42.759 over and really attempt to help the
00:05:47.360 people that are hosting with us have a
00:05:49.280 successful launch with their membership
00:05:51.680 and community website. So, we do a bit
00:05:55.360 more than what most hosting providers
00:05:57.520 will do. Plus, we got some additional
00:06:00.000 services. Plus, we provide a suite of
00:06:04.199 tools, plugins, basically WordPress
00:06:07.120 technology as part of the hosting
00:06:09.400 package that we provide the licenses,
00:06:12.880 but we provide the support and we make
00:06:16.400 we've tested it all and we've made sure
00:06:18.960 that it works great together. Yeah.
00:06:21.520 Well, I was looking over all the stuff
00:06:23.199 you had and I found it uh rather
00:06:25.360 fascinating and interesting about all
00:06:27.919 the different components you have and
00:06:30.240 the whole list of plugins you offer. It
00:06:33.440 looks like you have a bit of a specialty
00:06:35.840 in learning systems. Yeah, learning
00:06:39.120 management systems membership. Um I have
00:06:42.160 a kind of controversial um position when
00:06:45.120 it comes to membership with WordPress.
00:06:47.840 Um, I wouldn't say this is 100% because
00:06:52.319 that would be ridiculous. But I think
00:06:54.080 for the anybody that's planning to do
00:06:56.960 more than one course and really
00:06:59.680 attempting to build a really um a real
00:07:03.120 business in e education or a real
00:07:06.039 commitment, they really should look at
00:07:08.880 utilizing a learning management plug-in
00:07:11.280 rather than a membership plug-in. I
00:07:14.080 think there's certain circumstances M
00:07:17.360 like I say, if you're just doing one
00:07:18.880 course or you're selling digital
00:07:22.800 physical products,
00:07:25.120 um where membership plugin is okay, but
00:07:28.400 I think in general um you're best to
00:07:31.919 look at a learning management plugin.
00:07:34.639 Yeah. Well, which learning management
00:07:36.319 plugin do you learn? I've been studying
00:07:38.400 and trying to figure out a good learning
00:07:40.319 management program for the last several
00:07:42.160 months because I've been considering
00:07:43.840 adding courses to my stuff, but I just
00:07:46.080 haven't been able to nail them down and
00:07:49.120 test them. Which one is the one that
00:07:50.880 you're using the most and why?
00:07:53.840 Um, well, it depends on the type of
00:07:56.919 um customer or organization that you're
00:07:59.840 dealing with. If you're dealing with uh
00:08:03.039 the single
00:08:04.440 entrepreneur that is trying to build a
00:08:09.120 membership business as a a sideline, a
00:08:12.479 side hustle and hopes to turn that into
00:08:16.080 a full-time business. I think there's
00:08:19.120 clearly one leader that offers a
00:08:21.599 tremendous value. Um, especially the
00:08:24.479 package that we offer and that's in that
00:08:26.960 is Lifter LMS. Mhm. Because because it's
00:08:30.879 part of our hosting package, we offer
00:08:33.679 their infinity bundle, right, which is
00:08:37.039 around
00:08:37.958 $1,400 and we offer that and it's fully
00:08:40.640 licensed.
00:08:42.519 Um so but
00:08:45.560 um I think the truth of it um is there's
00:08:50.160 three main leaders in the WordPress
00:08:52.240 space to my opinion. That's Lifter LMS,
00:08:55.200 that's Learn Dash and Tutor LMS. Mhm. Um
00:09:00.560 and we offer Lifter LMS and and um Learn
00:09:04.440 Dash. Um because we don't offer
00:09:08.160 everything. we have to make a a decision
00:09:12.720 about they're the three clear clear
00:09:15.440 leaders and I I think you could choose
00:09:17.519 either of those three and dependent on
00:09:20.800 your
00:09:21.959 particular circumstances and needs. Um
00:09:26.800 but in general all three of those would
00:09:28.880 be great solutions, John. Oh, excellent.
00:09:31.680 Well, I'll dig down deeper into one of
00:09:33.519 those three then as I'm uh preparing up
00:09:35.920 this nightmare I'm trying to uh create.
00:09:38.880 Well, you need to host reverse, don't
00:09:40.560 you? Oh, no, no, no. I can do that. I
00:09:43.279 already I already have my own hosting.
00:09:44.880 I've got, you know, several servers of
00:09:46.959 my own that I run, you know, and uh I
00:09:50.000 have, you know, couple hundred clients
00:09:51.920 that uh I manage. So, yeah, it's just
00:09:54.240 kind of hard to jump hosting when you're
00:09:55.680 already a hosting provider. Obviously, I
00:09:58.880 was I was only teasing. I know. I know.
00:10:01.040 And then I just went all defensive on
00:10:02.640 it. So, hey, it's all good. Adds to the
00:10:05.240 fun of it. So you also what you should
00:10:08.480 what you should have said John is oh no
00:10:10.880 I'm I'm gonna look at GoDaddy. Yeah.
00:10:13.200 There you go. That's I should have said
00:10:14.320 no look at GoDaddy. No better than that.
00:10:16.079 Go to Blue Host. Oh yeah.
00:10:19.920 I'm trying to think of some of the
00:10:20.959 others I ran into over the years. No.
00:10:23.279 No. I started hosting back in 1999. So
00:10:26.800 when I had some problems and I went, you
00:10:28.399 know what? I need my own
00:10:30.680 server. Started out for myself, grew it
00:10:33.120 to a business. So, at any rate, um, now
00:10:36.480 you've also been,
00:10:39.480 um, let's see, where did I go here? I
00:10:41.760 had I had questions lined up for you.
00:10:43.760 Well, we'll just run it up. So, what are
00:10:46.160 the challenges you do face with, uh, all
00:10:48.399 the hosting environments and other
00:10:50.399 options that other people out there
00:10:51.839 have? Do you worry too much about all
00:10:53.839 the competition or just go, well, I've
00:10:55.440 got my clients and I'm good.
00:10:58.160 Well, you got to be competitive. But if
00:11:01.040 we couldn't provide, you know, we do not
00:11:04.240 in any shape and form pretend that we're
00:11:06.800 GoDaddy or Blue Host, right, or um WP
00:11:11.800 Engine or um Liquid Web. We are
00:11:16.040 bestow hosting company with a particular
00:11:19.440 specialtity. So
00:11:22.440 um we have a number of clients. Some are
00:11:26.399 small, some are medium, some are very
00:11:28.560 large companies. Um, but they're all
00:11:32.160 looking for expertise and knowledge in
00:11:36.320 the e-learning and they like WordPress
00:11:39.760 because of the ownership and cost
00:11:43.760 effectiveness of WordPress, but it's
00:11:46.560 really more about owning the
00:11:48.560 intellectual property and not relying on
00:11:51.040 a SASbased platform. but they also are
00:11:55.920 looking for a partner and somebody that
00:11:59.600 clearly shows that they have knowledge
00:12:01.519 in this particular niche.
00:12:04.160 I think I think the main thing that a
00:12:06.560 lot of people struggle with us
00:12:09.959 is they ask for advice, but they've
00:12:13.040 already made their opinion, their choice
00:12:16.320 in their heart. And there's so much
00:12:22.839 um choice in the WordPress space that
00:12:26.959 you can get a bit
00:12:29.399 engrossed in the right technology stack
00:12:33.279 rather than concentrating on how you're
00:12:36.079 going to market your membership website,
00:12:38.560 right? and actually get your what I call
00:12:42.079 which I've taken from the world of
00:12:45.560 bootstrap SAS is a minimum viable
00:12:49.240 course. You get a lot of people that
00:12:51.760 approach us, John, that think that by
00:12:54.480 building a enormous course, it's
00:12:58.000 actually going to help them market it
00:13:00.320 and really prove the value of their
00:13:03.920 experience and knowledge. And it's
00:13:06.079 totally understandable, John, but in my
00:13:09.440 opinion, it's totally misguided because
00:13:13.040 really your first course should be like
00:13:15.360 what I just said, a minimum viable
00:13:17.440 course. And then get your first students
00:13:20.320 in um and learn what they are really
00:13:23.600 looking for. Um, there's many things
00:13:27.120 that I've I presumed that people in my
00:13:31.120 niche would be really excited about in
00:13:34.399 our hosting packaging and they they've
00:13:37.760 shown total indifference and I've just
00:13:40.320 spent a load of
00:13:41.959 time finding the right service, adding
00:13:45.040 it, white labeling it. Um, and there was
00:13:48.000 absolutely no interest. So I think a lot
00:13:50.720 of people do the same. They make they
00:13:53.440 think by build I call it the kind of war
00:13:56.240 and peace of courses, right? You know,
00:13:58.720 some mammoth course
00:14:00.680 with and I really I think and a lot of
00:14:04.959 people spend spend too much time on the
00:14:09.680 color of a button and the position of a
00:14:13.120 of their lesson grid and getting it
00:14:17.120 pixel perfect, right? which when you've
00:14:20.519 proven that your course has got a real
00:14:23.600 demand for it, I think then is the time
00:14:27.760 to really um delve into those particular
00:14:31.519 issues. So that's the main thing that we
00:14:34.800 really um struggle um we've got better
00:14:38.160 at it because you got to be very
00:14:39.600 diplomatic but right not being
00:14:42.240 dictatorial but really having clear
00:14:45.480 pathways and we have a white glove on
00:14:48.399 boarding
00:14:49.560 experience where when somebody buys one
00:14:52.720 of our packages they actually um have a
00:14:56.240 white balding session with one of my
00:14:58.920 success experts and we actually find out
00:15:02.720 what they're trying to achieve. John, so
00:15:05.360 so then what you're what you're saying
00:15:06.880 here also is that you not only will host
00:15:10.480 them, help them get into the system, but
00:15:12.240 you'll help bu help them build out and
00:15:14.079 get their courses going to begin with.
00:15:16.959 Well, we configure everything of the of
00:15:20.079 the when they tell us what they're
00:15:22.399 trying to achieve, we can then advise
00:15:24.639 them of what plug-in um stack technology
00:15:28.560 WordPress technology stack that would
00:15:30.560 work for them. Mhm. Um on our very
00:15:33.199 extensive list, we don't install
00:15:35.120 everything. We just have different
00:15:37.040 options and different depending because
00:15:40.000 some people want a community focused
00:15:42.079 website where they're looking to combine
00:15:44.000 membership with Buddy Boss or Fluent
00:15:46.160 Community. Others are not interested in
00:15:48.880 community, they just want a membership,
00:15:51.199 right? So, it really depends. Some are
00:15:54.000 looking to do um
00:15:56.920 serious marketing optimization, so we
00:15:59.839 offer packages in that. Others are not
00:16:03.040 at that stage. So, it really depends on
00:16:05.279 the
00:16:06.040 individual's what they're looking for.
00:16:08.759 Um, yeah.
00:16:13.399 Excellent. So, the other one I noticed
00:16:16.000 here is you you mentioned Buddy Boss. I
00:16:19.440 think I touched on it a few years ago
00:16:21.759 for a client that has long since moved
00:16:24.480 on, but how do you find it works with uh
00:16:28.320 integrations and creating a community
00:16:30.800 using Buddy Boss?
00:16:32.880 It's a great tool for the right person
00:16:35.519 at the right moment. Um um I think it
00:16:39.519 was the only realistic tool until a year
00:16:42.320 ago, but now you got fluent community.
00:16:46.079 Um you got what community? Sorry, I
00:16:48.160 didn't catch that. Fluent community. Oh,
00:16:50.480 fluent community.
00:16:52.320 Yeah. Um, I think if you're starting out
00:16:55.519 on this journey, um, I think Fluent
00:16:58.639 Community is a better choice now than
00:17:00.880 Buddy Boss. But if you already got a
00:17:04.319 community that's growing on, let's say,
00:17:07.400 Facebook groups or a Slack channel or
00:17:12.400 you've built something on mighty
00:17:14.559 networks,
00:17:16.359 um I think Buddy Boss is a fantastic
00:17:20.240 platform, but building a community is
00:17:25.039 plus a membership is not a lighthearted
00:17:29.320 endeavor.
00:17:31.160 Um, also it's a very similar situation,
00:17:35.120 John, to what I what I said previous is
00:17:38.559 a lot of people think by offering a
00:17:41.120 mobile app for Android or or
00:17:45.640 Apple that will make their community
00:17:48.640 more appealing. Um, I totally disagree
00:17:52.320 with that. I think the investment most
00:17:55.919 want a white labelled app.
00:18:00.039 Um, normally if you go to Mighty
00:18:02.559 Networks, that would cost you between 20
00:18:04.880 to $30,000,
00:18:06.880 right? If you go to Circle, it's
00:18:09.600 probably around 15 to
00:18:12.039 25,000. They're a little bit cheaper.
00:18:15.200 Um, that kind of investment for white
00:18:18.160 labeled. Um, if you go to Buddy Boss,
00:18:21.280 they'll be able to do that initially for
00:18:23.760 a couple of thousand and then it's about
00:18:25.919 200 a month. So, it's a much better
00:18:29.200 investment, but I I still wouldn't
00:18:32.799 advise it for somebody starting because
00:18:35.679 I don't think it would it will help you
00:18:39.360 help building the community and building
00:18:42.799 a
00:18:43.640 successful business at all. Actually, um
00:18:47.600 I think people get totally sucked into
00:18:50.720 the whole business and there's a lot of
00:18:53.320 influencers online that give very
00:18:57.799 um misguided advice, shall we put it
00:19:00.960 that way. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of
00:19:02.640 unfortunate misdeed advice out there and
00:19:05.760 uh we all do what we can with it.
00:19:07.679 Thinking of misguided advice in the
00:19:09.679 world, let's take a little change. Let's
00:19:11.440 go dive into the future of WordPress and
00:19:14.280 AI and have you been embracing or using
00:19:17.520 the AI tools and how have you been using
00:19:19.679 them? Yeah, I use a lot of AI, John. I
00:19:23.440 love it. Um, I'm virtual right now,
00:19:26.000 John. Um,
00:19:30.039 um, yeah, I I use a lot of AI,
00:19:32.880 especially with SEO. I I do um to do my
00:19:37.679 SEO research. There's a number of
00:19:40.799 professional level tools. My main
00:19:44.240 purpose in the company is marketing and
00:19:48.000 and client our medium to larger client
00:19:52.880 communication and management.
00:19:55.880 Um I do spend a fair bit in dealing
00:19:59.200 directly with smaller clients in the
00:20:01.280 ticket support system just to keep
00:20:04.559 my hand in and keep a feeling about
00:20:08.799 um how things are going in the company.
00:20:12.360 Um but no, I use a lot of AI. Um how is
00:20:16.480 it going to affect it is extremely
00:20:20.360 difficult to determine
00:20:23.600 um what's going to happen. I think
00:20:26.760 there's in some ways in the kind of
00:20:30.960 short medium to medium and I what do I
00:20:33.919 mean by that in two to five years time
00:20:38.760 um it could be quite radical. I say
00:20:42.240 that, but I think on the lower end of
00:20:45.440 the
00:20:46.360 market, people that are really looking
00:20:49.039 for a
00:20:50.440 template, a starter website, whatever
00:20:53.520 the term is, depending on what page
00:20:56.559 builder you're, which is your poison,
00:20:59.760 right? Or you're looking for SAS, you
00:21:03.039 know, you're look you're that DIY person
00:21:06.159 that's using Wix, Squarespace, or you're
00:21:08.960 looking at WordPress. I think they're
00:21:11.520 the main three things that a small
00:21:14.679 business, a DIY individual that really
00:21:18.159 hasn't got any budget, they're the three
00:21:20.240 platforms they would look at. Um I
00:21:24.400 really apart from generating the text, I
00:21:28.960 think that market was really um served
00:21:32.840 by starter websites already, right? I
00:21:36.799 think um I think formatting the text and
00:21:40.799 putting it in makes makes it a little
00:21:44.320 bit more convenient.
00:21:46.640 But I also think that that type of
00:21:50.320 customer was well served in a way in the
00:21:54.559 last four or five years anyway. Sean,
00:21:56.960 well, you're right there in that the
00:21:59.840 starter website industry has been around
00:22:02.240 for a while and been serving up instant
00:22:06.400 click here templates loaded. You got
00:22:08.480 some temporary content and you tear it
00:22:10.400 all out and put in your content, you're
00:22:12.640 good to go. That's a lot of that aspect,
00:22:15.679 the AI. That's not some Well, it's
00:22:17.280 something I've sort of looked at
00:22:18.720 recently. Um cuz Elementor of course is
00:22:23.440 which has been my builder of choice for
00:22:25.280 the last uh couple of years and they're
00:22:28.400 expanding it out. One of the things they
00:22:30.159 did just recently is they put out their
00:22:33.880 AI. I can't remember the name of it, but
00:22:36.559 you put in your basic information and it
00:22:39.280 spits out a full ready template of pages
00:22:43.440 with the header, the footer, your
00:22:44.960 graphics, your a few of your graphics in
00:22:47.360 place, your font color, your choice,
00:22:49.520 your color theme, and everything else.
00:22:51.360 And then you just import it directly
00:22:53.039 into your freshly installed Elementor,
00:22:55.679 and boom, you're all set. You just start
00:22:57.280 filling in your content.
00:22:59.120 And I used that recently on as an
00:23:01.360 experiment and it worked surprisingly
00:23:03.919 well to allow you to move forward at a
00:23:07.280 bit faster. It saved me probably 5 10
00:23:10.400 hours of initial setup. You know, all
00:23:13.280 that setup of choosing the right fonts
00:23:15.280 and getting everything tweaked, all the
00:23:17.280 minor adjustments because it did it in a
00:23:19.679 very short order. The other thing is you
00:23:21.840 mentioned you use it for doing your SEO
00:23:24.760 research and people are using it for
00:23:27.840 writing their content though you can
00:23:29.600 pretty much tell what a lot of content
00:23:31.200 is that was written by AI when it
00:23:32.960 appears. No, I disagree with you there
00:23:34.880 John. I I think I think that's a load of
00:23:37.520 B really all I've been I've been able to
00:23:40.240 pick it out. Maybe it's just the way I
00:23:43.520 It depends on um the tools you're using
00:23:46.480 and you know there's a particular
00:23:48.720 individual that dominates SEO in the
00:23:51.919 WordPress space and they just they just
00:23:55.280 got a copy farm and just hired an army
00:24:00.360 of Indian and all writers army of them
00:24:05.039 and they just produced some of the worst
00:24:07.120 content ever read. So I think a lot of
00:24:11.200 people especially if they're they're
00:24:13.600 content writers and that's how they make
00:24:16.240 their living get a bit sniffy about it
00:24:19.039 and for
00:24:20.200 very
00:24:22.200 indepth specialized
00:24:26.080 articles and um white papers. Yeah.
00:24:30.840 Um you probably can, but that's just my
00:24:34.320 opinion. I I think there's a lot of
00:24:36.080 people getting very sniffy about it.
00:24:38.240 Well, yeah, you're probably right there.
00:24:40.080 The other areas that I have found useful
00:24:41.919 is uh one of my buddies here in town, uh
00:24:44.720 he wrote a program called Descriptor
00:24:48.240 that uses AI to go into your media
00:24:52.159 library and for your images that don't
00:24:54.640 have
00:24:56.320 um titles and descriptions and stuff.
00:24:58.400 You just click a button, it creates it
00:25:00.720 based upon the image and some input you
00:25:03.279 put into the plugin initially to
00:25:06.159 describe what your site is going to be
00:25:07.840 all about. And so far, I found it to be
00:25:10.880 90% accurate where it reads the image
00:25:14.000 and gives you an excellent description
00:25:16.000 of what the image is.
00:25:18.000 Yeah, I would be very careful using that
00:25:20.080 funny enough because I um I think Google
00:25:24.320 I I use a very expensive system that
00:25:28.760 humanizes because it produces without
00:25:31.679 this it produces really good content
00:25:33.679 because I I just I just myself I just
00:25:37.039 don't ask it to write it. I give it a I
00:25:41.120 do the research and I give it um an
00:25:44.960 outline and I give it custom prompts and
00:25:48.320 then it churns it out and then I edit it
00:25:50.799 all um and it's filled with it's filled
00:25:54.000 with mistakes. Well, um it you know
00:25:58.000 because a lot of the content it's basing
00:26:00.080 the article on is out of date. So you do
00:26:03.600 have to check it and edit it and um
00:26:07.760 customize it. Um and then after that
00:26:11.799 process, it's reasonably pretty good
00:26:14.320 actually. But you got to be very careful
00:26:16.640 about the tags, the meta description,
00:26:19.840 the titles, the um image descriptions
00:26:22.880 because if Google senses that you're
00:26:25.919 using I
00:26:27.559 AI, which is hilarious in a way because
00:26:30.559 they were one of the main developers of
00:26:32.799 AI,
00:26:35.000 um that they will penalize you quite
00:26:38.080 heavily, John. Oh, really? Okay. wasn't
00:26:40.720 fully aware of that. But at at any rate,
00:26:43.440 when they when it does kick out these
00:26:45.120 descriptions, you do get a chance, you
00:26:47.279 do get an opportunity to rewrite them
00:26:48.880 and bring them, you know, more
00:26:50.480 humanized. The biggest thing it does
00:26:52.960 that saves you the initial time of
00:26:55.120 trying to figure out a way to describe
00:26:57.200 it. Yeah. No, it's not. I'd never I
00:27:00.559 myself would never turn it on and say,
00:27:02.080 “Yep, go ahead and put them all in there
00:27:04.400 and not let me change them.” Because
00:27:06.720 it's never going to do that. I don't
00:27:09.279 think AI will ever be able to quite do
00:27:11.279 that. Well, when it can, I think we'll
00:27:14.400 have other things to worry about, won't
00:27:16.159 we? Uh, we'll have to worry about uh AI
00:27:18.960 taking over the world and deciding that
00:27:20.720 humans are no longer of value to the
00:27:22.320 planet. That's our big problem. No, they
00:27:24.000 love us. They find us very interesting
00:27:26.640 pets, John. Well, you know, they'll
00:27:27.919 they'll put they'll put us in the matrix
00:27:29.919 and run us in their big giant battery to
00:27:31.760 supply them with energy. Be much more
00:27:33.440 hum. We're not very humane as a species
00:27:36.480 anyway, John. You know, I think this is
00:27:39.200 pure projection. Actually, I think the
00:27:41.520 AI gods are going to be much more um
00:27:45.600 humane and affectionate and they just
00:27:48.640 treat us as deluded little pets
00:27:51.120 basically. There you go. It'll be we'll
00:27:52.799 be their little pets and they'll use us
00:27:55.120 as they need us to do. No, they just
00:27:58.320 have better morals than us really in
00:28:00.960 general.
00:28:03.039 All right. Well, let's wand let's wander
00:28:05.440 off. Now you made mention in the things
00:28:07.600 it's talking about Matt Mullen wagon
00:28:09.840 what he's done in the last well give it
00:28:12.880 seven months now when he started his
00:28:16.480 battle with uh WP
00:28:18.679 Engine and what that's done to the
00:28:21.120 community I've actually from my
00:28:22.880 viewpoint I've seen some tremendous
00:28:25.760 improvements in the
00:28:27.559 community the community as a whole not
00:28:30.320 just not the stuff all wrapped around
00:28:32.080 the WordPress drama but the community as
00:28:34.320 a whole I thought I've seen seen some
00:28:36.200 really serious improvements and more
00:28:38.760 people coming out and talking again that
00:28:42.799 had seemed to have gotten lost. That's
00:28:44.480 what I've seen from it. And you?
00:28:48.559 I mean, what do you mean by that, John?
00:28:51.279 What can you give a specific? Well,
00:28:53.600 yeah. Maybe it's just me becoming more
00:28:56.080 involved in WordPress again, but I
00:28:58.880 noticed
00:29:00.840 people being a little more helping and
00:29:04.799 promoting other businesses versus I got
00:29:07.679 mine, I want to keep mine, you know,
00:29:09.360 versus that squirreling effect in the
00:29:12.080 very beginning of WordPress. Like I
00:29:13.679 haven't been here since the very very
00:29:15.440 beginning, but I've been with WordPress
00:29:17.679 since version 2.5.
00:29:20.399 And in the beginning there was that
00:29:23.039 feeling of helping someone, you know,
00:29:25.760 pushing like um I was part of the first
00:29:28.799 word camps here in Victoria back in the
00:29:30.880 day when we had word camps. You know,
00:29:33.200 they were the fir the word camp in
00:29:34.960 Victoria was one of the first ones on
00:29:36.399 the west coast of uh North America. And
00:29:40.399 there were more people trying to help
00:29:42.799 and promote. It's like promoting other
00:29:45.200 people's businesses, pushing other
00:29:46.720 people's business forward, not so much
00:29:48.640 worrying about theirs, knowing well you
00:29:50.080 help others, you're going to get helped
00:29:51.520 along the way. It's just the way it
00:29:52.720 works. But I've seen more of that
00:29:54.799 optimism and I've seen other things like
00:29:57.039 he's on the listening on the show right
00:29:59.200 now, influence WP, creating the
00:30:01.600 influence WP community to change the way
00:30:05.679 professionals can promote their stuff.
00:30:08.720 um versus like I've been turfed from a
00:30:11.279 couple of uh forums for making the the
00:30:15.200 big mistake of putting my own URL to a
00:30:18.960 article I wrote to solve a problem. You
00:30:20.720 ter you terrible person. Yes, it was a
00:30:23.760 very terrible you how could you do that
00:30:25.919 John? I know. See, that's the thing is
00:30:28.240 that started getting really bad and it
00:30:30.480 gave me a bad taste for a while. Was
00:30:32.240 part of the reason why I sort of faded
00:30:33.760 away. You mean Otto didn't like you?
00:30:37.039 Here we go. Well, I don't worry too
00:30:39.200 much. You know, I'm 60 years old now. I
00:30:40.799 don't got to worry if people like me
00:30:41.919 anymore. I'm an old man. All right,
00:30:44.240 there we go. You seem quite sharp to me,
00:30:47.200 John. Um I think it's I like all things
00:30:51.279 WordPress, John, I think it's very
00:30:54.200 contradictory the situation. I think um
00:30:58.559 because of the growth of page builders
00:31:00.760 eleator initially but now with my choice
00:31:05.520 which is cadence WP
00:31:08.559 um or bricks or um there's a number of
00:31:13.760 them um that's brought in a a whole new
00:31:18.440 crowd
00:31:20.039 into WordPress
00:31:22.799 um younger people Um I think also a lot
00:31:27.440 of people got disillusioned with the
00:31:29.840 community and felt that they were being
00:31:33.320 abused and they um they their work was
00:31:38.640 you was being utilized as a free
00:31:41.200 resource. Mhm.
00:31:44.039 Um and people just got burnt out and fed
00:31:47.679 up with it and they found other things
00:31:50.640 to do or whatever. And that's been a a
00:31:54.080 constant story from the beginning of
00:31:57.840 WordPress, but it's not unique to um to
00:32:01.480 WordPress. These um factors have been
00:32:05.679 present in almost any opensource
00:32:08.440 project. But that's the other point.
00:32:11.200 What is WordPress opensource project? Um
00:32:15.120 I I I woke up about seven years ago that
00:32:20.720 it was a hybrid. It wasn't really
00:32:23.559 opensource project. It was open source
00:32:26.799 whenever Matt Manweg wanted it to be
00:32:29.519 open source when it when it suited his
00:32:33.399 needs and his investors needs. When it
00:32:37.600 comes to the actual dotted line, yes,
00:32:40.320 it's open source code and that cannot be
00:32:45.200 changed.
00:32:46.720 but um utilizing
00:32:49.799 copyright
00:32:52.039 and using various business structures.
00:32:56.159 He personally
00:32:58.440 designed a complex web of different
00:33:02.159 connected nonprofit and commercial
00:33:05.399 companies that were designed to hide the
00:33:09.760 reality of the situation from the bulk
00:33:13.039 of people that are involved in WordPress
00:33:16.399 and to uh enable him to have kind of
00:33:21.039 commercial control over opensource
00:33:24.000 project. Mhm. And
00:33:27.000 um what
00:33:28.840 I in
00:33:31.320 public when he made this statement that
00:33:34.000 he was a benign dictator, I publicly
00:33:37.760 published a blog that
00:33:40.039 criticized
00:33:41.720 his statement and his attitude. and I I
00:33:45.120 paid a high price for that blog because
00:33:48.159 I became slightly untouchable and
00:33:51.840 certain sponsors wouldn't sponsor my
00:33:54.640 podcast and whatever.
00:33:57.640 Um so it's it's been an ongoing
00:34:00.880 contradiction and
00:34:03.559 um when he entangled himself with and in
00:34:08.719 some ways did the impossible you know
00:34:11.119 make people feel sorry for you know the
00:34:14.639 founder of WP Engine um Jason
00:34:20.079 um we're not a close personal friend but
00:34:22.960 I think we are pretty friendly and he
00:34:25.440 would take my emails and phone calls. He
00:34:29.440 left WP Engine a long while ago. I I I
00:34:33.119 think he might still have some equity in
00:34:35.440 the business. I don't know. But um this
00:34:39.760 business is open owned by a publicly
00:34:43.440 well a
00:34:44.760 VC.
00:34:46.440 Um Matt has managed the impossible. He's
00:34:49.839 managed a lot a lot of people to feel
00:34:52.000 sorry for a VC managed company. It's
00:34:55.119 quite amazing. Um, but what it's also
00:34:59.440 opened is the
00:35:02.359 elaborate inagment of the foundation
00:35:06.000 which is a should be a nonprofit and in
00:35:08.960 my opinion was set up illegally. Mhm.
00:35:12.240 Um, and he he I'm not a legal expert,
00:35:16.800 but I have a couple of friends that are
00:35:20.160 have been or are corporate lawyers. And
00:35:23.760 if he doesn't settle this
00:35:27.079 matter with WP Engine and it gets into
00:35:31.040 the the public discovery process, I
00:35:34.640 think the way that he set up the
00:35:37.680 foundation, which in my opinion is
00:35:40.440 illegal. Um, he's going to get into a
00:35:43.520 lot of hot water.
00:35:45.760 Yeah, highly possible. Uh, by the way,
00:35:47.440 we lost your video.
00:35:49.480 So, something happened to your Pro
00:35:51.680 webcam app.
00:35:54.640 Oh, right. I've lost lost video. All
00:35:56.480 right. It's quite all right, man. And
00:35:57.920 it's easily it was easily managed. But
00:35:59.359 you you may be right there. I haven't
00:36:00.960 dug down as deep as you've just uh uh
00:36:03.839 talked about. I've only stayed on the
00:36:05.760 periphery of it and half paid attention
00:36:08.880 to little bits and pieces. The little
00:36:10.560 bits and pieces I have seen have been
00:36:12.720 like, “Yeah, okay. This doesn't seem
00:36:15.119 right.” Right. It's like the the stunner
00:36:16.560 to me was when he yanked people from the
00:36:21.079 wp.org site, which I had always thought
00:36:24.599 was owned and controlled by the uh
00:36:28.480 charitable organization. And it turned
00:36:30.160 out no, it was his own private website.
00:36:32.079 That was the only that was the big
00:36:33.280 stunner to me.
00:36:35.359 So, well, um I think I think yeah, I
00:36:39.200 think that's when people
00:36:41.000 realized
00:36:43.000 how screwed up Fins were, how the
00:36:48.720 reality didn't really match with the
00:36:50.880 propaganda that him and the people that
00:36:54.079 work for him in Automatic, how utterly
00:36:57.119 screwed up everything was. Mhm.
00:37:00.359 Um and it is a total um mess of what
00:37:07.119 automatic owns and good luck to them.
00:37:11.520 You know, I would have thought having
00:37:14.520 WordPress.com and having the founder of
00:37:17.880 WordPress and also owning Woo Commerce
00:37:21.359 would be enough for you to be clearly a
00:37:25.520 leader that you wouldn't need to utilize
00:37:29.040 these other methods of
00:37:33.079 intimidation
00:37:34.839 and dicey setups or foundations.
00:37:39.040 In my opinion, um I would have thought
00:37:41.920 those three things most of the
00:37:44.320 competitors would literally cut their
00:37:47.599 wrists to to get hold of, but certainly
00:37:50.880 this isn't this isn't enough. Yeah. Um
00:37:54.560 um you know um and being that you got
00:37:58.400 those free things and you've also
00:38:01.680 through three numerous rounds of private
00:38:05.040 investment actually got almost slightly
00:38:08.720 below a billion dollars of investment. M
00:38:12.400 um I would have thought these factors
00:38:14.720 would have encouraged you to be a
00:38:17.079 leading contributor to the opensource
00:38:20.720 project because you um I think I think
00:38:25.760 one of the drivers is that automatic
00:38:28.079 itself hasn't been run very well as a
00:38:30.640 commercial company.
00:38:33.040 um that these
00:38:35.640 clear factors that would mean that most
00:38:38.640 companies under reasonable management
00:38:40.880 would have a
00:38:42.520 clear they would be the leader. you
00:38:45.760 really wouldn't look at WP Engine or
00:38:48.880 some of the other, you know, they would
00:38:50.720 still be there, but you would have a
00:38:53.839 sizable amount of the hosting because
00:38:56.400 you got these clear leading factors,
00:38:59.599 right? Um, he's because of the in
00:39:02.640 inability to run automatic in
00:39:07.160 a in a way that I think you should, you
00:39:10.240 know, um I think it's been one of the
00:39:12.640 factors that led to all this, John. But
00:39:14.720 who do I know? I might be wrong. Well,
00:39:16.880 you know, it all it all comes down to in
00:39:21.200 the end, it always uh any organization
00:39:23.280 and company always comes down to its
00:39:24.800 leadership and what the leadership is
00:39:26.880 doing for it is what's going to happen.
00:39:29.839 Well, I want to make it clear. I've
00:39:31.280 never gone on Twitter. I won't call it
00:39:34.079 X. I refuse to call it X. I never will
00:39:38.000 call it X. So, um it's Twitter.
00:39:41.480 Um, I've never gone on Twitter
00:39:45.240 and personally attacked Matt. Um, I
00:39:50.240 don't believe in it. I don't like this
00:39:52.800 aspect of the WordPress community. Um I
00:39:56.800 don't like um I do it a little I I use
00:40:00.880 the hashtag drama WordPress drama and
00:40:03.680 that because I do a a monthly roundt
00:40:07.040 show and for for legitimacy
00:40:11.680 um for intellectual legitimacy I
00:40:14.880 probably will cover certain stories that
00:40:16.720 other podcasts won't cover. Mhm.
00:40:19.640 Um, and I've got
00:40:22.760 um because I like a good discussion
00:40:25.680 basically. Um, but I've had to pay a
00:40:29.119 price for that. Um, welcome to it. But
00:40:31.920 but you know, I'm a big guy and I've
00:40:34.960 been around a while, so I'm prepared to
00:40:37.040 pay the price. So, um, well, on that
00:40:41.040 note there, let's, uh, segue into the
00:40:44.000 last component here, talking about, uh,
00:40:46.000 running a long-term podcast in the
00:40:47.839 WordPress professional space, because
00:40:50.240 your show is almost as old as mine, you
00:40:53.599 know, because my show my show has been
00:40:55.359 running now for 16 years, since
00:40:59.720 2011 or no, 2000 late 2010. I I I know
00:41:03.839 the age of it, but my youngest son was
00:41:06.160 born when I started this show and he's
00:41:08.560 turning 16.
00:41:10.720 Yeah. Um
00:41:14.079 Well, it's interesting. I'm always
00:41:16.160 surprised by the quality of guests that
00:41:18.720 I manage to get on the show. I I've had
00:41:22.800 some of the biggest people in tech, you
00:41:24.720 know, Matt Mweg, um Jason, um and I've
00:41:30.079 made
00:41:30.839 some good friends through it. Um I've
00:41:35.359 also um I've also lost friends. I've
00:41:38.480 lost people that have been on the panel
00:41:41.040 for a long period. And there a couple
00:41:44.000 years ago I had the WordPress mob after
00:41:48.079 me, the uh the righteous keyboard
00:41:51.119 warriors of WordPress. Mhm. Um accusing
00:41:54.560 me of all sorts of things. Um and a
00:41:57.920 couple of the paninists just dropped me
00:42:00.160 and other a couple other people, but
00:42:02.720 also quite a few people were very
00:42:04.800 supportive. So it's a mixed bag.
00:42:08.520 Um I got into it by accident. Um, I had
00:42:12.160 a co co-host that said, “Why don't you
00:42:14.160 do podcasting? I'm really into it
00:42:16.079 myself.” And he was my co-host for
00:42:19.200 almost a year. Um, he's long gone. We
00:42:23.359 don't really talk to one another now.
00:42:26.119 Um, but I got into accident. Um, really
00:42:29.920 I do two podcasts. I do the WP Tonic
00:42:32.960 that's really aimed at the professional
00:42:35.000 market and really I get a few people
00:42:38.560 host for me that are freelancers power
00:42:41.280 users but my main business is on the DIY
00:42:45.280 and the power user and I've got another
00:42:48.800 podcast called the membership machine
00:42:50.960 show which is really aimed at my target
00:42:53.280 audience. Right. I keep the pod the WP
00:42:56.880 Tonic going because
00:42:59.800 um because building relationships and I
00:43:04.800 get a little bit of sponsorship and that
00:43:07.359 covers the cost of it that also helps me
00:43:09.839 cover the costs of the other podcasts.
00:43:12.480 But I I like to keep it independent
00:43:15.119 because
00:43:16.920 um yeah, you know, but it's been
00:43:19.920 interesting. is bit because I tend to
00:43:22.000 think who who
00:43:23.960 cares what we say on especially the
00:43:26.720 round table show John I tend I tend to
00:43:30.240 think who the hell cares it's only a
00:43:33.280 small podcast with a very niche audience
00:43:36.079 right but I'm amazed how its ability to
00:43:39.200 rub people up the wrong way well yeah it
00:43:43.839 can't they can do that then you you'd be
00:43:46.839 surprised like when I've brought myself
00:43:49.280 back in And I've started interviewing
00:43:51.200 people. I've started running into people
00:43:52.880 that were listening to my show back in
00:43:54.720 the day. And they were telling me how
00:43:57.040 much they enjoyed it and how much it
00:43:58.880 really helped them out in the beginning.
00:44:01.280 And so that's why I'm trying to bring
00:44:03.359 this show back to what its roots were.
00:44:06.240 Over the years, I've had I've got I've
00:44:08.880 had two guest hosts. One is currently
00:44:10.880 still. It's like this is my every other
00:44:13.839 week I do interview shows. And then on
00:44:16.800 the opposite week, like next Monday, I
00:44:18.880 do our regular podcast show and my
00:44:20.800 co-host is my daughter who's on who's on
00:44:23.680 the show with me and we bring of course,
00:44:26.079 you know, plugins, news, information,
00:44:28.640 talk about the things of the day, the
00:44:30.400 important the other important stuff.
00:44:32.319 These interviews, I'm hoping to get
00:44:33.680 these interviews so that we can bring
00:44:36.560 more perspectives and I can talk to more
00:44:38.800 of the movers and the shakers and the
00:44:41.119 people who don't get heard from in the
00:44:42.800 WordPress community. That's one of my
00:44:44.240 biggest things is chasing people that
00:44:45.680 don't get heard from.
00:44:47.760 Yeah. I just want to finish off that I'm
00:44:49.920 still very supportive of WordPress. Oh
00:44:52.880 yeah. And I want I want the best for
00:44:54.839 Matt. Um I think it is not good for
00:44:59.920 WordPress if automatic isn't in a good
00:45:03.280 place. No. And I want them to have
00:45:07.920 success on WordPress.com.
00:45:10.400 I I want them to be able to build the
00:45:13.440 best alternative to Shopify using Woo
00:45:17.040 Commerce, but have it linked to
00:45:20.920 opensource system that if somebody
00:45:23.960 outgrows the um hosted platform, they've
00:45:27.520 got a clear way of of more
00:45:31.520 customization. Yeah. Um um I want
00:45:36.079 automatic to be hugely successful but um
00:45:40.400 I could not
00:45:41.960 defend this hush this very ugly and ill
00:45:47.760 advised setup of what the foundation
00:45:51.920 owns and controls and who actually
00:45:56.400 controls the foundation and what
00:45:59.680 automatic owns. And
00:46:01.960 until some common sense prevails and
00:46:06.400 it's clearly cleared out that the
00:46:10.640 governance of the foundation is up to
00:46:13.520 the standard that legally and morally a
00:46:17.760 foundation should be
00:46:20.280 managed in my opinion. I've got to keep
00:46:23.119 saying my opinion. Sorry, John. That's
00:46:25.359 quite all right. It's all it's all my
00:46:26.880 everything that comes out of my mouth is
00:46:28.480 my opinion. my it's definitely my
00:46:30.560 opinion, John. Um, until this is really
00:46:33.680 clarified, um, Automatic and Matt
00:46:38.440 and Otto, whoever, they can do all the
00:46:43.319 PR PR they like, but until they really
00:46:48.000 clear the situation. So, it's
00:46:51.319 totally up to the standards that I would
00:46:55.160 expect, I think they're going to have a
00:46:57.520 continuing problem, John. Yeah. Well,
00:47:00.400 they quite very well could for for some
00:47:02.640 time. I'm hoping that it gets uh squared
00:47:05.200 up in a decent way. I'm definitely still
00:47:08.000 a supporter of WordPress. There's so
00:47:09.520 much that can be done with it. You know,
00:47:11.359 carrying back to our talk on AI, one of
00:47:13.359 the things that I've been doing with it
00:47:15.040 is using it to help me write plugins.
00:47:17.680 Yeah. You know, it's like there's a lot
00:47:19.440 of good tools and advantages out there
00:47:23.200 and being able to do it in an opensource
00:47:26.160 environment where it's like, okay, well,
00:47:28.160 I've got the base software now. It's
00:47:30.480 like, I need a solution. Well, there's
00:47:32.079 okay, we got this solution here. Well,
00:47:33.680 they want too much for it, but you know,
00:47:35.440 I could build that. They can build it
00:47:37.839 themselves for a solution, you know, or
00:47:41.040 expand it or take it in a direction that
00:47:43.119 nobody even thought of yet.
00:47:46.000 So um yeah but it's a very diverse you
00:47:49.359 know you got we are in a bubble here
00:47:51.760 John our viewership are very specialized
00:47:55.359 well group of individuals the general
00:47:58.160 end user WordPress even though that I
00:48:01.920 would classify as a a lower power user
00:48:05.119 they
00:48:06.200 really they wouldn't even know what we
00:48:08.720 were talking about and they don't care
00:48:11.040 about what we're talking about because
00:48:12.800 all they're interested is having a
00:48:14.560 website that generates some leads and
00:48:18.560 some money for their business. But most
00:48:20.640 of those have themselves a developer or
00:48:24.079 someone that does the tech work that
00:48:27.280 does interact with someone at our level
00:48:29.440 to get ideas and information to move
00:48:31.520 along. So there there's the whole
00:48:32.960 ecosystem from the company that just,
00:48:35.680 you know, I I don't care how you get it
00:48:37.280 done, just get it done, you know, to the
00:48:41.079 hardcore person who writes every every
00:48:45.119 line of code from scratch and then
00:48:47.680 everything in between. Yeah. So, and
00:48:50.720 that's what WordPress offers. It offers
00:48:53.760 everything from one end of the spectrum
00:48:55.359 to the other. and the Kurl over the last
00:49:00.319 6 months has put a lot of a lot of it in
00:49:02.880 jeopardy. Though I don't think it's a
00:49:05.119 thing well they it's put it's put it in
00:49:08.319 jeopardy but I don't think it is the end
00:49:10.319 of the world and I think it's going to
00:49:13.040 settle out and smooth over time and
00:49:16.079 it'll change. The whole structure is
00:49:18.960 already starting to change and it will
00:49:20.880 change it. We just don't know what the
00:49:22.880 end is going to be yet because there's
00:49:25.040 still a lot of unfinished things. So
00:49:26.880 anyway, go ahead. Yeah, you're probably
00:49:29.119 right. But I think this is only my
00:49:31.680 opinion, John, and I've I've said it
00:49:34.200 before. I
00:49:36.280 think I think what
00:49:39.319 led to the kind of blowout and his
00:49:43.119 decision at Word Camp US
00:49:46.119 to public go public with his problems
00:49:49.599 with WP Engine. I actually think another
00:49:52.559 factor was playing and that factor
00:49:56.839 is the way that Gutenberg was going.
00:50:00.319 Mhm. that um is the one of you know um a
00:50:05.800 project you know obviously refactoring
00:50:09.440 code on a platform that's running 40 to
00:50:13.520 45% of all websites
00:50:16.800 is an enormous
00:50:19.319 technical thing to attempt
00:50:23.559 um and so I don't want to be too
00:50:28.160 critical but I I think the way the
00:50:31.760 project had had been managed, especially
00:50:35.119 when it got into the fourth year and the
00:50:38.559 way it it they they there really didn't
00:50:41.599 seem to be any it's got better funny
00:50:44.160 enough
00:50:45.079 until obviously it's been put on the bit
00:50:48.160 of the back burner to some extent,
00:50:50.240 right? Um, but it was a project that was
00:50:54.000 causing a lot of upset and a lot of
00:50:58.400 especially plugins, you know.
00:51:01.480 Um yeah, I I think this how it was
00:51:05.920 managed and how it was going kind of
00:51:09.200 kind of started a bad
00:51:12.920 taste in the developer community that um
00:51:16.599 is that is there but I might be totally
00:51:19.920 wrong there, John. No, it that's bad
00:51:22.480 taste in my mouth for a while. Um, I
00:51:24.960 still don't use it unless I'm absolutely
00:51:26.880 forced to, but it's there's so many
00:51:30.720 other options that have been moved
00:51:33.520 forward because of that choice.
00:51:36.640 Yeah. So, and that's that's where that's
00:51:39.119 where we ended up. At any rate, I think
00:51:41.680 we'll wrap it up here, Jonathan. And,
00:51:43.920 uh, this will be a spot where, you know,
00:51:45.839 you get an opportunity to share where
00:51:48.240 people can find out more about you, your
00:51:50.160 business, and all the other good things
00:51:52.480 that happen.
00:51:54.319 That's well go to the
00:51:57.000 wpentonic.com website. We've got a
00:51:59.440 special page where we've got some great
00:52:01.200 special offers from our sponsors and a
00:52:04.160 list of created plugins that we you
00:52:07.920 utilize. So we we tell you what their
00:52:11.520 good and bad points are and a number of
00:52:14.760 surfaces that would interest the power
00:52:18.160 user and the WordPress professional. You
00:52:20.240 can get all this by going over to
00:52:25.319 wpentonic.com/dealss.
00:52:29.160 wpentonic.com/dealss. And you'll find
00:52:30.800 all the goodies there. Excellent. All
00:52:33.760 right. Well, what we're going to do
00:52:35.200 here, we're going to play a little music
00:52:37.359 to car or a little exit to carry us on
00:52:39.599 out. Don't run away on me yet.
00:52:42.800 Reminders for the show. All show notes
00:52:45.520 can be found at wpplugins.com.
00:52:48.960 And while you're there, subscribe to the
00:52:50.640 newsletter for more useful information
00:52:52.559 delivered directly to your inbox. WP
00:52:55.599 Plugins A to Z is a show that offers
00:52:58.160 honest and unbiased reviews of plugins
00:53:00.640 created by developers because you
00:53:02.480 support the show. Help keep the show
00:53:04.800 honest and unbiased by going to
00:53:08.680 wpplugins.com/donate and set the
00:53:10.240 donation level that fits your budget.
00:53:13.520 Help us make the show better for you by
00:53:15.680 subscribing and reviewing the show at
00:53:17.599 Stitcher Radio, Google Play, and in the
00:53:20.000 iTunes store. You can also leave us a
00:53:22.480 review on our Facebook page using wp
00:53:27.559 plugins.com/fas. You can also watch the
00:53:29.680 show live on YouTube. Check out the
00:53:31.760 screencasts and training videos and
00:53:33.920 remember to subscribe and hit the bell
00:53:35.520 to get notifications of all new videos.
00:53:38.559 Follow the show on Twitter at wpplugins
00:53:41.839 a toz. John can also be reached at his
00:53:44.880 website
00:53:46.200 johnoverall.com or email him directly
00:53:48.720 john at
00:53:51.000 wpro.ca. Thanks for joining us and have
00:53:53.440 a great
00:53:59.079 day. Thanks for listening to the show.
00:54:01.680 This show is copyright by
00:54:03.720 johnoverall.com. So until next time,
00:54:06.079 have yourselves a good morning, good
00:54:07.599 afternoon, or good evening, wherever you
00:54:09.280 happen to be out there on the globe
00:54:10.559 today.
00:54:29.040 I love that little bit at the end. Yeah,
00:54:31.440 that's fantastic. You know what's funny
00:54:33.440 about that? Everyone's heard the story
00:54:35.760 multiple times, but I still never tire
00:54:37.520 of telling it. Um, I got that just
00:54:41.520 before I created my first show. My son,
00:54:43.920 who's turning 18 in a couple of weeks.
00:54:47.520 He was just over two, almost three. And
00:54:51.280 I was testing all my equipment. And I
00:54:53.359 just set it up. I'd hit play or hit
00:54:55.520 record on my computer to record some
00:54:57.440 testing on my microphone. He came over,
00:54:59.520 grabbed the microphone, did that, and
00:55:01.599 then walked away.
00:55:04.319 Yeah. Natural broadcaster, John. Yeah.
00:55:07.880 Well, and so I've I've immortalized him
00:55:10.880 with my show with I've immortalized his
00:55:13.119 his three-year-old self. There we go. A
00:55:16.319 natural. So, yeah. At any rate, we're
00:55:19.040 still live um out there that this is
00:55:21.119 just a little post stream. Um everything
00:55:24.000 in between the intro and extro is the
00:55:25.839 part that goes out on my regular
00:55:27.200 podcast.
00:55:28.720 um the download. Good job you said that,
00:55:30.559 John, because I was just about to swear.
00:55:32.839 Yeah, not that I worry too much about
00:55:35.200 it. I I haven't monetized anything.
00:55:37.920 There was once a point you mentioned
00:55:40.000 talking about getting sponsored for the
00:55:42.640 show. I tried that once with my show and
00:55:45.599 the headaches the sponsors gave me, I
00:55:47.760 just went, you know what? I'll just suck
00:55:50.000 it up and take the hit on it and use it
00:55:53.440 for other other use my show for other
00:55:55.760 things besides trying to make money.
00:55:57.200 I've not tried to make money on the
00:55:59.280 show. I've never tried to monetize my
00:56:01.200 YouTube channel. Nothing. Oh, well. I'm
00:56:04.000 more I'm a more commercial. But what I
00:56:06.400 do, John, is um I offer good like one
00:56:11.440 episode, but I try and look for annual
00:56:13.920 sponsors and I do them a good deal and
00:56:16.400 they pay upfront.
00:56:19.040 So, they not so um Yeah. But because
00:56:22.720 otherwise, yeah, you get exactly what
00:56:24.880 you outlined. Well, it it wasn't so much
00:56:27.599 my content. It was like some of them had
00:56:30.640 demands that Yes. I didn't want
00:56:33.640 to acquies to. I just went, “No, that
00:56:37.040 that goes against who I am. I'm sorry. I
00:56:40.559 can't do that.” Yeah. Yeah. You you I'm
00:56:43.280 not You're going to You want me to be a
00:56:45.040 total digital you're going to
00:56:46.559 have to pay me a lot more money. Well,
00:56:48.240 that's pretty much exactly the idea is
00:56:50.720 you have to pay me a whole lot more
00:56:52.319 money to do that. But no, I I just went,
00:56:54.240 “Yeah, no, I'll do it my way and we'll
00:56:56.880 see what can happens.” I don't know if
00:56:58.720 you've ever listened to my show before.
00:57:00.079 My other co-host was Marcus Couch. He's
00:57:02.559 out there still doing podcast. What What
00:57:05.520 happened to him? I haven't heard from
00:57:07.040 him in a few years. Last time I heard,
00:57:08.799 he was doing podcasts on um uh
00:57:11.440 basketball game podcasts. Oh. So, I know
00:57:14.559 he's still around. Every once in a
00:57:15.760 while, his name pops up and I I hear
00:57:17.680 something about him, but I haven't heard
00:57:19.280 from him in quite some time. Don't know
00:57:21.760 where he's at in the world now, but he
00:57:23.680 was loads of fun. He help He helped me
00:57:25.599 elevate the show to to a different level
00:57:27.520 from where I was at the beginning. All
00:57:29.680 right, that's good. Yeah. Well, I
00:57:32.839 I I don't say sorry to disappoint you,
00:57:36.720 John. I don't listen to it every week,
00:57:38.480 but I do still listen to your show, and
00:57:40.480 it's one of the shows that got me into
00:57:42.240 WordPress, so you've always got a
00:57:44.319 special place in my heart, John.
00:57:46.400 Excellent. Well, glad to hear that.
00:57:48.079 Yeah, I I listen to your show from time
00:57:50.079 to time. I try to listen to people's
00:57:51.359 shows, but I have so many different
00:57:53.040 things to listen to. It's like it's I
00:57:55.839 don't get it upset that you don't listen
00:57:57.359 to me, John. If if I was you if I was
00:57:59.760 you, I wouldn't listen to me. No, I I do
00:58:02.079 like the round table from time to time.
00:58:04.079 The the guests sometimes I see your list
00:58:06.240 of guests when you put it up on the on
00:58:08.160 Twitters and uh I go, “Oh, that one
00:58:10.640 looks like it's worth listening to.” The
00:58:12.079 other thing is is the biggest time I
00:58:14.480 listen to the shows is I work I do all
00:58:16.720 my work in the morning and if I happen
00:58:18.319 to catch somebody's like doing a show
00:58:19.760 it's like oh good I got something to
00:58:21.280 listen to and then I'll remember to
00:58:22.960 listen to it while I work.
00:58:25.280 Yeah. But um I think we all want the
00:58:27.520 best for WordPress but Matt Matt has not
00:58:30.880 done himself any favors has he?
00:58:34.400 No unfortunately not. He's not done
00:58:36.400 himself any favors with all with the uh
00:58:38.559 actions over the last six seven months.
00:58:41.200 These are these are worse than the
00:58:42.720 actions having been around as long as
00:58:44.319 I've been. I've seen the actions where
00:58:46.160 he took on thesis and I can't remember
00:58:50.079 the others. You know, it's like I saw
00:58:52.880 those. It's like really? And those ones
00:58:54.640 there faded away because they they
00:58:56.880 didn't go anywhere. This time he picked
00:58:59.599 a fight with a big gorilla
00:59:02.480 that's got endless money. Endless money
00:59:05.200 for lawyers. That's what happened. He
00:59:06.960 picked a fight with a big gorilla this
00:59:08.559 time instead of somebody else. the all
00:59:10.640 the other fights he picked with were
00:59:12.559 people that didn't didn't have the
00:59:14.240 ability to really fight back. Yeah.
00:59:17.599 Which I don't that's always been a
00:59:20.240 problem for me with him. But
00:59:22.599 well, a couple of the people he went
00:59:24.880 after were jerks themselves, so that
00:59:26.960 might be a factor as well. That that
00:59:29.440 that happens too. But they're still, you
00:59:32.079 know, whatever. Anyway, I'm going to
00:59:34.000 wrap that and we'll call it that for the
00:59:36.559 end of the stream to YouTube. And uh
00:59:39.040 don't run away on me here. All right.
00:59:41.680 Goodbye, YouTube. And make sure you
00:59:43.920 listen to it, folks.